Jason Hartman and investment counselor Kerry talk about signs that there may be a pending economic downturn. Later they discuss self-management and give tips on how to be better than a property manager. While you don’t have to self-manage it’s important to know how to not be taken advantage of by your current property manager.
Thanks for your support. Jason, I appreciate your support and your whole network. It’s really been very beneficial to me and, and a whole lot of others. I encourage everyone to use your resources that you have. But thanks.
Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can do it. And now here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.
Jason Hartman 1:02
Welcome to Episode 1197 1197. As you hear this, I will be just wrapping up our venture Alliance mastermind retreat in beautiful Savannah, Georgia. This interview I had with one of our investment counselors Kerry, of course, he has his own show he’s been on over the years. And he kind of interviewed me, but I kind of interviewed him at the same time. So it’s sort of a joint interview. So let’s go ahead and get to that right now.
Jason, I read it as the one of the true investment visionaries of our time, because everything you’ve done, Jason has been proven out over the last 1314 years. So with that, welcome to the show.
Jason Hartman 1:54
Well, hey, thanks. It’s good to be back on and good to have you on my show as well carry on. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than everything else. That’s what I’ll say about income property. And hey, the question is, when not if, but when will the recession arrive? I kind of feel like we’re, we’re at Christmas Eve waiting for Santa to show up, I guess in sort of a bad way. Some perverse way to say it, maybe. But But you know, it’s like, we’ve been talking about the recession coming for quite a while a lot of people have and when I say we, I don’t mean us, because I kind of thought this economy would last longer than usual. And it has, but you know, it’s not going to go on forever. There are some ominous signs out there out there.
Of course, there’s ominous signs. But one thing I like to point out there’s trends in place that are causing this economy to continue on number one is all of this dollar denominated debt that has been taken out by overseas trading partners, and they’re paying back this debt in dollars. We got a trillion dollars a year, roughly. debt repayments coming back in dollar debt repayments. And then another trend that is totally overlooked, misunderstood and neglected because the powers that be don’t want you to think about it. The invasion taking place in Europe now. And the failing political systems there. Look, is for many people, they think it’s Germany in the 30s again, and where they’re going to put their money, they’re going to go put it in the Bank of China, and hope that the Chinese cash their check, or is it coming to American banks and business?
Jason Hartman 3:34
Right, America has always been known as the Brinks Truck of the world. In other words, the secure place to put your capital. And I think now that is just as true as it’s always been, maybe even more so. And you’re right. Tell me though, you know, the European immigration disaster, it is a disaster. You know, it’s interesting. I remember reading something maybe two years ago, it was is a man who was talking to his daughter here. I think his daughter had just graduated from college. And she was kind of making the decision on whether she should take her sort of customary trip to Europe that kids stay right when they’re young. Right. And I think someone in the room was in the room with them, and said, Well, listen, there’s no rush, because the daughter was deciding between going to Europe on a trip for the summer, or doing something else might be taking an internship. I can’t I can’t remember what it said. But the point is, that someone in that conversation said, Europe will always be there. And then he says, He pondered that afterwards. And know it will not always be there. Now, granted, the land will be there. But Europe is changing dramatically. Now. I was born in Europe. I know you know that. I go there pretty much every summer sometimes I go there twice a year. It’s a disaster. I mean, it’s sad. we’re witnessing the end of a once great continent. And, you know, it’s not just the recent rash of immigration from the Middle East before that it was socialism, and just kind of like prosperity even before that, that leads to socialism and apathy. It is a sad state of affairs what’s going on in Europe? I mean, it really is. I mean, it’s not all bad, of course, but I don’t know.
It’s pretty bad and denial over it, so they won’t address the problem. Only guy who’s wants to do something is the guy in Austria and the guy in Italy running. We’ll see how long they last but can flight capital and therefore actually bullish on New York City real estate for the first time in a long
Jason Hartman 5:49
time? That’s a weird statement. New York City real estate right now is crashing. What do you
Kerry 5:55wait till the foreign money starts pouring in their New York’s
Jason Hartman 6:00
What what what do you mean? It has been I mean, you know, I did a show a few years back about how all the Russian money was coming to New York City and, you know, building up these properties. And, you know, the 1100 square foot condo was $3.2 million.
But, but that’s like the upper upper class of Europe, upper financial class, when the people who were worth say $5 million, start piecing this stuff together, they’re going to come to the major cities, right? And even though they’ve done their best to stop the money laundering and flight capital and all that, it’s going to happen at a rate that we’ve never seen. I’m not saying it’s gonna happen tomorrow or the day after, they don’t really think about the state taxes, and confiscatory taxes and government inefficiency and all that the way Americans think of it as it’s our country, we’re more familiar with it. They think of a New York City real estate, that’s the rock, that rock of value. So you’re gonna see
Jason Hartman 7:00
Well, that’s interesting. So the thing I think we don’t want to mislead listeners, though, in thinking that oh, well, I should run out and buy an overpriced condo in New York City. Because the reality is that is a highly speculative market with terrible cash flow, obviously. So, but it is interesting what you said, you know, that’s interesting. Let’s talk about a couple bullet points about the economy. I’m looking at this article that you’re looking at, do we credit Trump for the amazing run that we’ve had? Right, you know, that’s one issue. And then the other one, is it going to last? How long will it last? What about this looming debt? Let’s tackle a couple of those. I will.
Look, I don’t think and I was very skeptical when Trump became president, that he could keep this thing going or even improve upon it because we were headed for a recession. I estimation now when he was elected. some extent it’s psychological, other extent it’s lower tax rates. So For instance, you heard the news, probably the US deal is putting a $1.2 billion, investing it in their steel bills at home here. Yeah, it’s it’s exciting, but one of which we’ll talk about more later is, is that, number one, the terrorists have definitely cut the American appetite for foreign steel. But the second one is the bonus depreciation aspect of the new tax law where you get to write off 100% of your cap x day that you do it.
Jason Hartman 8:30
Let’s explain what that means. Let’s not assume everybody gets that. So that means that if you have a steel factory, a steel mill, or whatever business and you spend money to improve that business, that’s called the capital improvement or cap x, that is deductible versus before the Trump tax plan that we have now. You have to wait to get that deduction. It took a lot longer to realize it now. It’s
more immediate right road off. So if a car lasted or truck lasted five years, you wrote off the value of that vehicle over five years. If a machine lasted 12 years, then you wrote it off over 12 years. So you spent $12 million on a machine, you wrote off just for argument’s sake, a million a year. Now, the day you buy it the day it goes in your right off 12 million. So effectively, you’re just deducting that off your taxable income, and you’re paying less in taxes, which is why Amazon paid no taxes last year, you saw foreign exchange, every sales.
Jason Hartman 9:38
So let’s wait on the Amazon thing for one second. So everybody needs to realize the beauty of this for the USA. I mean, it is incredible, right? The combination of what Trump is doing okay, and listen, I got my reservations about Trump. Don’t give me some email saying Oh, it sounds like a comment. mercial for Trump. All I ever said is that Trump would be good for the economy. And hey, I’ve been completely right about that. And I think I’ll continue to be right about that. And I think Kerry, you probably said the same thing. So here’s the thing, though, think about what he’s doing, right? You Institute tariffs or at least talk of tariffs, right? You don’t have to actually do them, you can just say you’re going to do it, and the market reacts. So you start the trade war, you do the trade war, they all keep talking about the trade work. And then you bring jobs back to America in doing this. And then you basically are signaling to American manufacturers and American businesses of any type. Look, you got a waiting market here, because now you’re going to have a much more level playing field to compete on price. We understand that you American companies have a much higher regulatory burden. You’ve got OSHA requirements, you’ve got minimum wage requirements. You’ve got a whole Host of regulations that your foreign competitors don’t have to tolerate. Yeah. So we’re going to level the playing field with tariffs, okay. And then you throw in this new tax plan that says, look, and if you’ll want to open a factory or increase the size of your plans for this new waiting market of consumers that were formerly lost to your foreign competitors, you could feel pretty safe to do it. And boy, that is a huge stimulation.
O’Connor. Sure. And it’s the reason why, even though the first quarter is generally the slowest quarter of the year, you’ve seen a 3.2% increase because there’s so many bad factors the first year, it’s the hangover from Christmas, buying season, all these things that generally tend to depress the economy in the first quarter of this year with 3.2%. That’s amazing increases It’s like experts surprised. Experts, not the believing, you know, experts caught flat footed as usual because it’s experts, right? Are they like our bullet points here? And how long can it last? It’ll last until it doesn’t, you know, trend is your friend until the end.
Jason Hartman 12:20
Yeah, very interesting. Okay. So I was on someone’s show yesterday, and I talked a lot about how I don’t think the next recession will be led by real estate or a mortgage meltdown. Like it was the last time around. I mean, the last time around, it was quite significantly real estate right. This time, we don’t have all those toxic mortgages out there. Now we do have toxic student loans. We do have some toxic auto loans and other types of consumer financing out there. And then we’ve got things that are kind of above my pay grade side debt and things that I don’t even kind of pretend to really understand in a real deep way. I mean, I guess I have shallow understanding of them. But what do you think is going to be the next thing? I mean, look at the slowdown will come?
Where will it come from? I see it probably in the financial sector. They’ve been making all these off balance sheet loans. The one thing that bankers are really expert at international bankers, big banks, is figuring out how to lose money, how to loan money and not get paid back when it comes to that they are professionals. Jason?
Jason Hartman 13:32
Well, I mean, you’re you’re saying that as if they do it on purpose, is there some conspiracy theory
though, they do it recklessly, right. they lend recklessly, it is the credit cycle that causes the eventual recession, because all of a sudden, they look at their book and they say, Wait a second. I haven’t these loans aren’t performing. We gotta stop and then they call it all the good loans to liquidate. And, you know, they’ve learned trillions of dollars to hedge funds. The hedge funds are not doing too well right now. Some of them are. But largely the industry is a bit depressed. And I don’t know what it will be. But it’s going to be a financially lead recession when it does come. The good thing is that if leadership is in place that says, you know, we don’t need too big to fail Bank of the United States, we’ll just close it down and will protect all the depositors and we’ll use what we would have bailed that bank out with will take that money and recapitalize a new bank, that’s almost too big to fail. It could be a great opportunity to really drain that sewer known as our financial sector. So we’ll see what happens. So let’s take this more into real estate investing. What does this mean for real estate investors? What should they do? What are your clients saying to you in the marketplace as you have all these discussions every day with investors What they’re saying, for instance, talk to a lady the other day, you know, she’s getting two or 3% on her money in whatever investment security that she was in, and it’s just not cutting it and she wants to retire one day, then we look at a piece of real estate, and forget about the appreciation, forget about equity pay down, you know, amortization of the mortgage, which is all positive, but just a cash on cash return Jason of 8% just can’t find that anywhere. And she was looking closer to her area in California, and properties are doing three to 5% return, and they’re overpriced. If you’re lucky, you get three to 5%. So that’s one thing that I hear. Another thing is diversification that I’ve cleaned up on the market. I’ve really done well, but I’m nervous about it. And I don’t want to have all my eggs in one basket. Plus, I’m not getting cash flow on my investment because I’m hoping for a pre I’m not invested in the dividend princes or whatever they call them, the Dow dividend stocks. And so there’s a little nervousness and there’s a desire to shift into other asset classes. So I see that. And I see people who, who’ve just said, you know, like, so and so down the street from me, we started out the same. He got into real estate, he moved out of the neighborhood, he’s living on the water someplace,
Jason Hartman 16:31
upgraded life, because of
getting mailbox money every month and not working. It’s like, why can’t I do that? And I said, Well, you can do that. You just have to take the steps requires a little bit of patience, you’re not going to have in all likelihood stellar returns unless they decide to put a highway through your house and eminent domain you then you could do really well but otherwise, be content to make good cash on cash return and then when you add in all the other bonds, which you are the biggest proponent of, it kind of becomes a no lose situation. And the problem is, from our standpoint, Jason’s we can’t keep inventory in stock here. You know, no sooner does a home get listed then it’s gone. So it kind of becomes an urgency that you do something now, rather than waiting till later.
Jason Hartman 17:21
Yeah, I think that’s always the thing, you know, a year from now, three years from now, if you didn’t start or you didn’t increase the size of your portfolio, depending on where you are in the game, you’re gonna wish you had and don’t be the coulda, shoulda woulda person. That’s the important thing because the regrets, the regrets almost always come from not doing it. They occasionally come from doing it. I mean, people if they’ve done a lot of investing, they’ll have a story like, Oh, I got this one lemon property. It’s just always a problem. You know, I just never get good tenants. And what I’d say to that is number one It’s the law of large numbers, you know, it’s we’re gonna have some bad experiences, just expect it and hey, deal with it isn’t gonna happen, right. But the other thing is, if you want to try to avoid those don’t buy the junky properties by the better quality properties. Now, look at I know, I know a lot of our clients listening, they love those cheap little properties, but I’m telling you by and large, just on the law of averages, you’ll do better and have better experiences with better quality property with you except for one
thing, we’ve got Pennsylvania, New York, central PA,
Jason Hartman 18:34
that’s not far from your old neighborhood
driveways from there, but I consulted to a mortgage bank there. And it’s coming back it’s an up and coming little beat down blue collar city. And the properties there the architectures beyond belief, okay, and we’ve got some renovated townhouses that you were I would gladly live in. If they were in the area. We want to Jason, these properties are Primo and under 100 grand, and they’ve got eight to 10% cash on cash returns, meaning if you put up $35,000, and that includes your closing costs you will make. If it’s 10%, you’ll make 30 $500 per year on your money. That’s the first year and then presumably rents are going to go up. I mean, the rental markets all over the country, the rents are going up sky high. So that’s one market where I say, on a less expensive expenditure, you can get a phenomenal property, that immaculate there, they’re beautiful. So I really think that’s one and you can go take a look at it. Just go over to Jason hartman.com and click the Properties button and check out Pennsylvania. Highly recommend and I like that semi rural semi urban area of Pennsylvania it’s become much more stable and it’s going to benefit from the state Boom as well. So not too far from Bethlehem. People can live in New York and drive to where these mills are going to be.
Jason Hartman 20:07
It’s kind of amazing that we’re even having this discussion I kind of never thought we’d have a discussion like this because I just keep thinking of the Bruce Springsteen song Allentown are closing all the factories down, it’s kind of on the best side the best most optimistic hope is maybe we’re in a little mini new industrial revolution part two, you know, that might be too optimistic. But you know, maybe but at least there’s things are things are coming back this way. So it’s really kind of refreshing. That’s That’s nice. And of course, we’ve got a whole bunch of other markets. As you all know, keep those in mind whether it be you know, the Florida markets, the Tennessee, Ohio, Arkansas, a little bit of inventory there. Not much Indiana yeah has been. Indiana has been our longest running market. Why we why
Yeah, I don’t know what you’re gonna say. But why anyway, for what it’s worth is that Midwesterners still have a great work ethic. They still buy American cars, their biggest American car market. And they’re just more American than the rest of us.
Jason Hartman 21:18
More America. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting way to put a good stuff. Any final thoughts to wrap it up, you know, where it’s going, what investors should do well
100% behind real estate now, because if you are a commodity trader, and you know how to trade port futures, you could have doubled or tripled your money over the past four months,
Jason Hartman 21:40
and you could have lost it or you would have lost it got a funny story about that. When I was a kid. I used to go to my grandparents house on a farm in upstate New York a lot for the summer. And I remember my very uneducated grandfather who Used to be a coin collector and he was a real estate investor a little bit. He was a farmer. Also, he played the commodities market. And I gotta adjust this for inflation because I have no idea what the number is today, in real dollars. I remember him talking constantly, one summer about how he lost $92,000 in four hours in pork bellies. And I’m like, What is pork bellies? You know, but then I realized, you know, that’s the he was playing the commodities market, right.
And yeah, so crazy. so crazy. You know, it’s like you live in a house or you live in an apartment, you know how to take care of it. You know, there’s a leaky faucet, you call the plumber? Well, basically, when you buy investment property, it’s the same deal. You’ve already got the skills to manage it. You have to rely on other people is presumably not going to be in your market but you
Jason Hartman 22:54
still or hopefully you’ll self manage and consider that and we can help
is really a great thing, and might not be for everybody. But I think a lot more people can do it, Jason than ever thought. I’ll put it this way, it’s much easier than you might think it is. Okay, that’s all I’ll say. It’s not perfect. Nothing’s perfect, but it’s a lot easier. I remember, worked with a guy who was doing foreclosures. And when he had to get prices on stuff, as he knew he wanted the house, he call up a contractor and say, Hey, I’m gonna buy this property, can you go take a look at it for me and tell me how much it’s going to cost to fix? And he do that three guys. And while you’re at it, could you send me some pictures, and they would do it, and then he’d figure out if he wanted to buy it. And he picked the cheapest guy or the guy with the best reviews, and he would hire that guy to fix it. And then the same thing if the tenants in there
Jason Hartman 23:50
he was crowdsourcing them to go do
the beauty though, Jason is, look, I remember we own some properties in New Jersey and guy would call up and say, I’ve got a broken faucet. My brother was so smart about self management, he would say, Can you fix it? Yeah, I can fix it. How much do you think it’ll cost you? Probably about $50. How about if I take $75 off a next month’s rent and you fix it? Okay. And they would do it. So you have to be creative. And you have to understand human nature and get the tenant or others in the area to be your agents voluntarily incentivize them to do.
Jason Hartman 24:30
Absolutely. I’m so glad you said that. Here’s, I just said this on another interview that I did with our client drew Baker, who has been doing these ongoing shows just he just contributing to the community just for free, he doesn’t get paid anything. He doesn’t get any benefit other than self expression, I guess and, and and helping people but he’s been on the show quite a few times. He spoke at our recent meet the Masters event about self management. And one of the things that I said on that reading An interview with him is I said, Look, you know, every real estate guru will tell you you should go have it you need a team, right? You need a team of people to help you execute on your plans to build a nice real estate portfolio. And I you know, that’s true enough. I have no argument with that I, I’d say the same thing. But one of the overlooked team members is your tenant, your all your tenants are part of your team. They really are. Most tenants are very nice, very decent, and extremely helpful people who will be your advocate who will shop around and help you get the best price. They want to feel like they’re part of something and they will meet the contractors, they will find the contractors for you. You know, it’s amazing how the tenant becomes your ally. You know, admittedly, sometimes you’re at odds with your tenant, if they’re not paying the rent and you got to be tough with them. I get it. But mostly, that’s not the way it is mostly there. One of your team members They’re helping you
out and you just have to use them to your advantage. And if somebody you’re going to rent to happens to be a handyman, or a contract or small contractor, and you’ve got other properties around there, use that person to your advantage as lots of instances of this. And now with cameras and smartphones, say, oh, there’s a leaky faucet, can you send me a picture? How about if I just ordered that faucet, you install it and software I know gives you so much capabilities, but you got to deal with people effectively, to self manage because you know, you’re not there yourself. But with smartphones, it’s almost like you’re there.
Jason Hartman 26:41
It really is easy. So anybody listening, you should probably have you know, you probably shop on Amazon for example, you should have in your Amazon address book, all of the addresses of your different properties with the names of your tenants attached each of them of course, you may rotate the tenant names every few years, but the property Dress will be the same, and just send things to them, you know, send them a little treat once in a while a gift for them. But also you can, you know, send them a new ceiling fan and, you know, they can have someone come over and install it be a little careful with this stuff with liability and so forth. Okay, obviously, you got to be smart, be well insured, you know, maybe talk to your insurance broker about this kind of thing. But the best way to source things is to break up the supply chain by the product yourself and have it sent, right they’ll just ship it right to the property with a click of a mouse. And usually for free and usually in two days or maybe even the same day. And I’m talking about Amazon Prime, and then you know, just have a handy man installing, you know, upgrade the properties for the tenants. If you’re self managing. A lot of this stuff gets a lot cheaper and a lot easier, and the tenants become much more appreciative. They stay longer, they don’t turn over the property. bad condition. It’s just a better relationship about relationships. I mean, you said it really well. Hey, you know, if you look at the place and you think, you know, it’s Christmas time, I’ll send them some new towel racks. Yeah, right. Right. Send them a gift that improves your property. self serving,
but you’re making it better for them as well.
It’s a win win. Yeah.
It’s 40 bucks for new light fixture or less,
Jason Hartman 28:26
it’ll cost you 25 bucks or $18.
There’s so many things you could do. And it’s little, it’s the little things that really make your relationship. People appreciate you that you’re not just a blood sucking landlord. You know, you just care about the money and you don’t care about anything else. It’s like you’re in it together.
Jason Hartman 28:49
Yeah, right. That’s when you self manage. That is almost always the vibe. When you’ve got a manager and there’s distance. It’s just good. So Yeah, it’s interesting, I’ve come full circle on that I really, you know, I’ve become much more of a fan of self management. And what’s interesting about that is when I owned properties locally, years ago, before I became a nationwide investor in 2004, I would never dream of hiring a property manager. Of course, I always manage my own properties. It would, it was so easy. Like I told the story before about this, this one property that was in Irvine, California, and it was 10 minutes from my office, and maybe, I don’t know, 12 minutes from my house, okay. And the tenant was there for three years. I went over to the house after they had moved out to just take a look at it. And I realized, you know, even though this property was 10 minutes from me, I haven’t been here in three years. It sort of didn’t matter that it was local, or it could have been 3000 miles away, it would have been the same experience that’s
funny, and very illustrative of the concept we’re talking about. Maybe you should Do it on your first or your second, maybe you’ve got a property manager you’re not happy with. But you got a tenant you love that loves you. And you both kind of conspire to eliminate the middleman, if you will.
Jason Hartman 30:10
Yeah, good idea and look at if you don’t like self management, you can always hire a property manager the next day. So there is a, a wide availability of managers that would love to have your account at any time you decide. It’s not for you. So you can always go back. It’s not like breaking up with your boyfriend or girlfriend, right? Maybe you can’t go back that time. But with this, you can easily go but
it’s like rocky said movie. I’m very available. Right? property managers are very available. Yeah, no problem. This is where you absolutely have to use them. We don’t need to get into them because they don’t apply to our clients, but it’s a viable option. It takes some getting used to you gotta keep good records, okay, because you got to know how much money you spent and how much money came Because the tax man,
Jason Hartman 31:02
we got to wrap it up. But let me just address that for one minute. Okay, so of course, the property tracker software is a fantastic tool for that. Property tracker calm. But a lot of times people ask me, Well, how do you deal with your bank accounts? And should I set up 29 LLC? And you know, I’ve already talked about that. I’m not going to go into it, but let me just address the bank account issue. I have some bigger properties. You know, I have a mobile home park, I have a couple of apartments, you know, bigger properties, but for my single family home properties, I just have one master account. God, I don’t want to mislead, I might have two accounts. Okay. But I mostly use one account for expenses. And then at least I don’t have my property stuff mingled in with other stuff. Okay. So it’s like when I go to my CPA every year for taxes, if there was a transaction related to one of those things, family homes in this batch, it happened in this account. Right? I know that much. So it’s not that hard to throw their shoe box, you know? Yeah, I don’t think you need a separate bank account for each property. Some people asked me that you can do it. I think it’s kind of overcomplicated though you know, I just think you need one account for all your properties and just keep it separate from everything else. And
one other thing we should mention, we kind of talked about it but if you need to set up an LLC, I can help you do that. I was a lawyer in a past life it’s not legal work it’s just paralegal work. Simple enough to do we can put together if you want and don’t let that be an obstacle to doing what you know you need to do and I guess that’s about it.
Jason Hartman 32:47
Yeah, that’s a that’s a great little helpful service carry because you were a lawyer for many many years so
felt like hundreds of years but it wasn’t but I’ve done 100 lol sees can do up the articles for you all that stuff. There’s do’s and don’ts should probably put together a do’s and don’ts list of setting up an LLC. Jason
Jason Hartman 33:06
Hey, good talking with you. Happy investing everybody. Go to Jason hartman.com for more info and
send me an email at Carrie K or y at Jason hartman.com. Any questions or comments, LLC issues, whatever, just send it off to me and I’ll answer it or tell you to hire a lawyer.
Jason Hartman 33:25
Sounds good. Thanks again and happy investing. Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss any episodes. Be sure to check out the show’s specific website and our general website heart and Mediacom for appropriate disclaimers and Terms of Service. Remember that guest opinions are their own. And if you require specific legal or tax advice, or advice and any other specialized area, please consult an appropriate professional and we also very much appreciate you reviewing the show. Please go to iTunes Stitcher Radio or whatever platform you’re using, and write a review for the show we would very much appreciate that. And be sure to make it official and subscribe so you do not miss any episodes. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode.