New Long Term Rental Experience With Onerents Chuck Hattemer

Jason Hartman starts the show discussing current events with India’s Central Bank and its relation to what’s going on with the Trump admin and the Fed. He discusses why business owners and landlords are two groups of successful citizens.

In the interview segment of the show, Jason hosts Chuck Hattemer, Co-Founder & CMO at Onerent. They discuss technology helping landlords self-manage. Chuck discusses why he created property management tools and some of the problems landlords encounter.

Investor 0:00
This market specialist was able to tell me the absolute lowest rent they’ve ever rented in that particular neighborhood within a certain parameter. And that number was great. It was within $50 of what they were telling me, even if I get the lowest number that be a great return terrific results. And then the other thing about having people applying and teed up and lined up to rent your properties right away just because at marketplace so huge and so many people, that just gives you a sense of confidence that you’re gonna have a very good cash flowing property without a great deal of risk is going to sit vacant for a month or two months and that sort of thing.

Announcer 0:34
Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender developer. And entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can do it. And now here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the complete solution for real estate investors.

Jason Hartman 1:23
Hey, it’s Jason Hartman and welcome to Episode 1077 1077. Thank you so much for joining me today. Today we are going to talk about an exciting area that is empowering investors. It is an amazing time to be alive. And I’m not saying this specifically for this interview. I’m also saying it because I just finished another interview on a similar topic and it is the broad topic area of self management tools and the renter. It’s perience the renter experience we’ve got to be mindful of the experiences our potential tenants and our actual tenants are having when they apply to rent properties. And when they’re actually renting properties from us. We are dealing with the most most historically proven asset class in the entire world. it’s incumbent upon us to learn and use all the tools available as investors and landlords and also to manage the experience of our prospective tenants and actual tenants. So we’ll talk a little bit about that with our guest today, Chuck hammer. We will have that in just a moment. Thank you to all of those who entered our contest are very high. good odds, easy to win contest for the Amazon Echo or the ring doorbell. Yes, let’s get our homes make them smarter and smarter all the time. Because As we say, it’s an amazing time to be alive and the smart home features are just getting better and better. And so are all of these different technologies we can use as landlords either with managers or without managers when we want to self manage. little note here a little news item. You’ve heard me talk about how Trump is. You know, razzing, I’ll say razzing, how’s that razzing, the Federal Reserve, and giving them a bit of a hard time saying the Federal Reserve has gone loco, right. So you know, typical trumpism type of language, you know, they’re raining on his parade. This is a fantastic, incredible economic boom time. The Federal Reserve is raising rates, I think too quickly, but they do need to raise rates, overall rates are artificially low, but they got to do it in a measured fashion. And I think they’re, they’re getting a little too aggressive about it. But on the other side of the world, one of the ad One countries I have visited, what is going on in India? Well check this out. India’s central bank chief may resign. And this article investopedia. I’ll just read a little bit of it. It says the bad news keeps coming for emerging market equities, share prices in India, the world’s fastest growing large economy fell on Wednesday, blah, blah, blah. But here’s the thing. So the government is just literally instructing the Central Bank of India on what to do. Okay. There’s a thing in their in their law called Section seven. Section seven of the RBI act enables the government to instruct the central bank on certain issues that it believes are serious and in the public interest after consultation with the governor. disagreements over several issues have led the Indian government to invoke for the first time in its history, this is pretty big deal. The first time in its history, this section seven, right, where they are now telling the central bank what to do, right. And this is what we’ve got, right? We’ve got central banks around the world who claim to be separate from government. They claim to be non governmental entities, as we’ve said, as G. Edward Griffin has been on the show many times and, and he spoke at one of our meet the Masters events a couple of years ago. Great speaker, gentlemen, gentlemanly speaker, by the way, you know, he says the Federal Reserve is about as federal as Federal Express, right. It’s a private corporation. It’s a banking cartel. And of course, it’s linked up and really controls the global cartel of central banks all around the world. But it’s not just the US. People have criticized Trump and maybe rightfully so. I don’t really We should have a Federal Reserve at all. And you’ve heard me talk about that extensively on prior episodes. But it’s just interesting to see, you know, Trump giving the federal reserve a hard time and the Federal Reserve, ostensibly turning a blind eye to Trump’s tweets, and then proclamations and so forth and statements out there. But in India, they’re controlling the central bank directly, I guess so. So we will see, by the way, interesting, Washington Post article, I want to thank our client and listener Richard, for sending this in. This article is entitled, owning your own home doesn’t make you rich, but owning somebody else’s does. Well, you’ve heard me talk about this ad nauseum. I won’t bore you again. I’ll sum it up with my somewhat famous quote, and that is, invest in places that make sense. So you can afford to live in places that don’t make any sense.

Jason Hartman 7:01
And part of that strategy is to own a lot of cheap properties that you rent to other people. Well, don’t call them cheap, Jason call them economical or inexpensive, and own those that you rent to other people that have excellent rent to value ratios, and then rent an expensive home for yourself, ideally. And I’ve done that for many years, and it’s been a very good deal in the vast majority of cases. But here this Washington Post article is just interesting. It says in the United States, more than almost anywhere else, wealth and income are concentrated among business owners and wait for it landlords, landlords guess, and that club blessed by capitalism is becoming increasingly difficult to join. Business owners and landlords tend to be about four times as wealthy as the average American now Let me just say something else. I may have shared this several years ago for you longtime listeners that are going through all almost 1100 episodes now for the second or third time, at the risk of repeating myself, but one of my friends in young entrepreneurs organization now called eo or formerly ye o now called eo entrepreneurs organization, because of course, as the members were aging, they didn’t want to lose them. So instead of being the young entrepreneurs, they just became the entrepreneurs. Yeah, whatever.

Jason Hartman 8:35
I was kind of in disagreement with that. But I was a member for 10 years. Great organization, one of my friends from there. I remember, he hosted one of our meetings at his business, and then after the meeting at his home, and it was kind of talking to them. And, you know, he was talking about all the properties his father owned and the business his father owned and so forth, and How his father became very wealthy doing all of this. And he said something very interesting to me. This is pretty good. You know, I naturally thought, well, his father’s just this captain of industry. And that’s how he got so rich. And my friend explained to me that, you know, the businesses did well, he made good income from them. But he always says the way he really got wealthy was not from the businesses. It was from the real estate he bought along the way, and some of it being commercial real estate that the businesses occupied. So income property, either way, the most historically proven asset class in the entire world. Okay, so in a reason working paper, Austrian central bank economists, how do you pronounce that per Min fesler and Martin Scholz used a long running us wealth survey, and it’s newer European counterpart to compare wealth across continents. Back to the article Courts obviously, it’s one of the first such comparisons to look at wealth in terms of what people use it for, rather than the arbitrary percentile cutoff points. the widest in equalities, they find are between groups inside countries not necessarily across country borders. So see when we make the survey, country agnostic, but we just survey groups by what they do or what they own, and how they invest. This gets interesting. In their analysis, they split households into three groups, homeowners whose primary wealth was also their primary residence. So typical homeowner form the bulk of the middle and upper middle class business owners and landlords. The landlord’s here, right? About 15% of US households tend to be among the wealthiest their wealth is typically used to generate additional income. Those who pay to rent their residences, about 35% of households and whose wealth is typically used to cover needs, such as emergency expenses or retirement, fill out the bottom of the spectrum. They’re joined by homeowners and business owners whose debt exceeds their equity. Now, don’t be misled by that last statement, do not be misled, because the typical renter of course, is struggling, right? That’s the typical renter. But there are very smart one renters who own a lot of properties and they’re big landlords, but they rent their own high end home for themselves and arbitrage that rent to value ratio. Anyway, this is just I just thought this was a very interesting article. And I thank Richard for sending it into me just yesterday. I am going to probably dissect it a little more and talk to you about it a little bit more in the future. But we’ve got to get to our guests today and you know where I need to go, I need to go to Hawaii. Because I am on my way out of California, to head to Hawaii to host our profits in paradise event. Look forward to seeing all of you there, we’ve got an app. for that. You should have received email instructions for the app download. It’s got the schedule. But you know, the schedule is very simple for this event. We’ll see you Saturday morning at 9am in the hotel ballroom, and we will go to about 6pm. On Saturday, we will have a Hawaiian dinner after that. And we’re hosting the dinner. And then on Sunday, we go from nine to six as well. So it’s going to be an awesome event. And we look forward to seeing you all there for profits in Paradise, our first one of these events, and we’ve got something awesome for you. Doug and I were putting the final touches this morning on the new wealth builder interactive exercise the wealth builder interactive game that we are going to play on Saturday and it is nothing short of awesome, because it takes into account all of the unpredictability, sometimes ugly surprises that we get as landlords and real estate investors, those things that really bummed us out. And it takes this into account over the course of a 10 year wealth building path. We’re gonna pick a portfolio, and we’re going to see how it performs when these surprises, sometimes ugly surprises come up. evictions, high turnover costs, things like that. And we’re going to play this all out on Saturday. So it’s going to be a great time at profits in paradise. We will look forward to seeing you there 9am Saturday, that’s all you really need to know, if you didn’t receive an email yet, by the time you hear this message from us, talk to your investment counselor. They will give you the app download information. So you have more info on the app, and we will look forward to seeing you in Hawaii. Without further ado, let’s get to our guest. I think you’ll find this interview to be very interesting.

Jason Hartman 14:03
It’s my pleasure to welcome Chuck hammer to the show. He’s the co founder of one rent. This is a company that offers property management enhancement services. I don’t know if I’m saying that, right, maybe that’s not the right tagline. But he’ll tell you. It’s pretty exciting to see what’s happening to empower investors in tenants. This company is working on a nationwide expansion. And they will be in some of the linear markets like Indianapolis, for example, relatively soon, and then expanding from there. And it’s a pleasure to have you chuck, welcome. How are you?

Chuck Hattemer 14:35
Jason? I’m doing well. Pleasure to be here. Where are you located? I am based out of San Jose, California and the Bay Area. So

Jason Hartman 14:43
you’re right there in Silicon Valley. Good stuff. Well, what does one rent do and how did the idea come about?

Chuck Hattemer 14:49
Warner is a real estate technology and services company and in the residential property management space. What we do is we kind of combine the power of an online platform For landlord, data driven human logistics on the ground in every market, and what that means is, as a landlord, you can sign up for one rent and have your property leased and managed from beginning to end, and be able to track the performance real time on your dashboard on the software we provide, while we handle all the physical aspects of showing your property, maintaining that property, filling it with qualified tenants, etc. So really the full lifecycle of the property we manage. And we do that for real estate investors in our markets. The business is about four years old. We’re, you know, venture backed company have about 8 million in venture funding. the inception of the idea came out of actually, myself and my two co founders, Greg and Rico. We started the company in college at Santa Clara University, which is here in the heart of Silicon Valley as well as college students. We sort of we really approach this problem from the renter perspective First, we found that there is a lot of issues With a very inconsistent and fragmented renter experience, you look online for a rental, you visit 10, different sites, Craigslist, Zillow, all these different rental listing sites, and they don’t really take you from beginning to end, right? Once you contact a landlord, it seems like you know, it all goes offline after that initial interaction. So we saw a problem with that and really wanted to offer value for the whole experience from beginning to end. And so we launched the platform purely as just a platform in college for housing for students. And we built all the tools like payments and lease signing applications and a listing platform. And we launched that. But through that experience, we worked with a lot of traditional property managers who were using our tool, and we found that really the pure technology side was not the problem, but rather, it was the logistics side of the business. So all the offline part of leasing and managing rental property. That’s where we saw the largest issue. And we talked a lot of individual real estate investors who were unhappy with the status quo of property management. And at that point, around the end of 2015, we opened up all the logistics side of the business. And we ended up implementing a workforce of on demand, sort of like Uber drivers for property management, and all of our markets. And this team is, you know, on the ground on demand for any tasks that require physical presence. And so that’s where we are today. And we work directly with property owners. We are a property manager ourselves. So when you said it solves this problem, you kind of addressed several problems

Jason Hartman 17:42
when you said that, what did you really mean? Did you mean the problem is fragmentation. The problem is offline technology. And then I’m really excited to hear what you’re talking about with Uber driver component, because I know that Uber was trying to sign a deal with I believe Zillow or the National Association of Realtors. It’s interesting just and this is not applicable directly to investors listening, but it’s applicable to the whole concept of the real estate industry that I’ve, you know, obviously been a follower of all my life basically, actually for about 12,000 days I counted them recently. And as such, the industry you know, has always been under this threat. I remember in the early 90s people talking about how you know, a TMT is going to come out with their own multiple listing service and put the realtors out of business, and it’s just never happened. But I the one thing I think that could really change it is if Uber drivers start getting lockbox keys. That will be that will be a major shift. And, you know, when we say Uber, we’re almost using that generically Lyft Uber any ride sharing concept. What did you mean, I know this is a giant compound question. But the first question is, what is the big problem is that the fragmentation of the offline technology The second part of that question was tell us about the Uber component,

Chuck Hattemer 19:03
the biggest problem we see is the fragmentation in the market. If you look at property management in residential, right, there’s over 200,000, so called property managers in the US alone. 95% of them have five or fewer employees, these operators, right, if you take a snapshot, for example of San Francisco, there’s 50 property managers just in that 10 mile radius of San Francisco. And so every property manager has a slightly different experience, slightly different process. And sure, they’re the sort of technology platforms like Apple Leo, or these essentially accounting systems and CRM systems. But the issue is that they don’t really address the core customer experience for the landlord or the renter. They’re really just back end accounting systems that still require, you know, these traditional operators to use. So what we believe in as our thesis is that, you know, we can create A sort of singular one quick rental process for renters, and by controlling the full end to end process of leasing and management. And what I mean by that is that right now, as a renter, if you go online, like I was saying, you know, you’re using all these different sites to find a property as a property owner, you may be listing on all these sites, Zillow, Craigslist, etc. So there’s no loyalty to one platform or brand, because you just want to market your property as much as possible. And we also market all of our properties on those sites. But what’s interesting is that once a renter gets into our system, they stick around and you know, about 40 50% of our renters coming in from one of those external sites end up sticking around on our platform and applied to many different properties. So we’ve made it very easy for a renter to complete the rental process from beginning to end for example, you know, they can book a showing on demand and what that does is that say they book a showing for Thursday at PM, we automatically assign that showing to one of our, we call them mobile managers, which are the Uber drivers have one rent, and one of these mobile managers is assigned that task. They have a mobile app, they can accept that task. And they can show up on Thursday at 1pm. Open up the lockbox and show the property to that person.

Jason Hartman 21:19
Wow. That’s gonna be so convenient. So, so that’s an Uber driver can meet them there or take them there and open the property for them.

Chuck Hattemer 21:27
Yeah, well, it’s not. I just use Uber driver as a metaphor analogy. It’s not really yeah, it’s not actually it’s our own workforce. But yeah, that there

Jason Hartman 21:38
I haven’t. Okay, so that’s why because it’s your own workforce. So you’re basically are the property managers then contracting with you to provide this service or who has the

Chuck Hattemer 21:51
revenue if you will? owner.

Jason Hartman 21:53
Okay, so the owner of the property has the contract with you.

Chuck Hattemer 21:56
Exactly. And it’s an exclusive contract with dusta. lease and manage them. property. So we offer you know the ability where you could just get the tenant placement leasing services. Or if you’d like that, plus the full management, ongoing maintenance of the property and rent collection, that’s a different option. So we offer both those options directly to the owner.

Jason Hartman 22:17
I think you alluded to this before, but I’m not sure I or the listeners understood it. Are you their property manager then or are you not exactly a property manager? We are the property manager. We’re a licensed brokerage. We have a broker. So we know the markets you mentioned are just where you are locally. Yep. All the markets. So essentially, you’re a high tech property manager, right? Would that be a fair statement? Okay. What do you charge for property management then

Chuck Hattemer 22:42
I guess, obviously, our pricing changes as we expand to new markets and the percentage of the rent So, for placing a tenant, we charge anywhere between 40 and 50% of one month’s rent to place a tenant. We only charge out upon signing of the lease, and then the management of the property future. To go forward with it is 5% of the rent.

Jason Hartman 23:02
So you are it sounds like then you are really undercutting the traditional price structure by a little bit. I mean, it’s not free. It’s not 20 bucks a month, but it’s less expensive than a traditional manager in most cases. Right?

Chuck Hattemer 23:17
Exactly, exactly. And the reason we’re able to do that is because we’ve built a lot of automation into the process. So, you know, 70% of our customers have never used a property manager before. And this is sort of, you know, if you look at the market, there’s some data out there that says, you know, only 30% of properties are professionally managed. So we’re attracting a lot of new sort of retail individual investors, the average property owner you work with maybe has one to two properties. It’s really the smaller investors that we’re serving. And you know, a lot of these investors also have properties in some of those tertiary markets like Indianapolis, so that’s why we want to expand there next, right. Okay, good stuff, good stuff.

Jason Hartman 23:59
So basically They can hire you either to just do the lease up as a one time service or ongoing property management, either one or both.

Chuck Hattemer 24:07
Right, exactly. Okay.

Jason Hartman 24:09
Got it. Exactly. I like that. That’s the sort of unbundled all a cart type of service that is getting more popular, thankfully. And I’m really glad it is. And so you get licensed in each state where you expand. Right?

Chuck Hattemer 24:23
Exactly, exactly. I believe there’s only a few states in the US where you don’t need a license, but we’re able to get those licenses in your state. Okay, great.

Jason Hartman 24:32
Do you have a competitor? Who would you say is your competitor? I mean, maybe they don’t do exactly what you do. But I’m curious is that as a property management software company, you mentioned at folio? There are many others, of course, but probably not right? Who would you say a

Chuck Hattemer 24:46
competitor is Is there anybody in your space, really the kind of the competition is sort of these online platforms like Zillow, for example, where they are releasing tools for landlords to be able to try to manage properties on their own. But these are generally free tools. And again, it still requires the landlord to do all the work of managing the property, the physical work of it. So we look at them as somewhat of a competitor, there’s not really company that’s a full stack, you know, with the kind of products we have for landlords and renters that is in the single family market. So it’s definitely a new space. But you know, real estate technology is heating up. There’s been billions of dollars invested in how we work and compass and open door and so we really fit into that segment of the sort of operation. I’m surprised

Jason Hartman 25:38
you put no II work in there. What is we work have to do with it? I mean, I mean, a compass, an open door, I could see you know, they’re in space. But yeah, I mean, that’s, you know,

Chuck Hattemer 25:49
good. working space. Yeah. So the reason I mentioned is just because they are another example of a operationally heavy technology company. So They’re not just a website, you know, there are operationally heavy. So we believe that is the next phase for real estate is full stack. We call it full stack, sure sort of operations where you have the technology and software side, but you also have the offline part. Right. And that’s a key part of sort of, almost back to the old, almost back to the old saying, we heard during the, boom of clicks and mortar, right. Yeah. Where you have the bricks and mortar and the clicks,

Jason Hartman 26:29
the High Tech High touch kind of concept. Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. I like that full stack offering. I think there’s a lot of missed with just having a website. It’s just not enough. You know, you got to bring it into the physical world as well. So I’m glad to hear that. Where do you see this going? I mean, what are some of the services that you plan to offer down the road or just that you see the industry offering in general? I think there’s,

Chuck Hattemer 26:54
there’s a lot here in the industry as a whole you know, I think is moving towards This sort of one place to do everything real estate related and the beauty of property management and rentals as we look at it as a wedge into the real estate market, right? If you get a renter in the beginning of their experience, their first experience with real estate is renting. Then as you rent one of the services, we are launching something called poplar street where a renter can actually earn credit. Every time they pay rent living in one of our homes, they can earn this home savings credit, which we will help them buy a home in the future. And if they buy a home through us anywhere, it doesn’t have to be the home they’re renting, we will give them up to 100% of our Commission’s back as an agent to help them move into becoming a home owner. And then at that point, the idea is that we can also have that relationship with them as a homeowner and maybe in the future they decided to invest in real estate and become a real estate investor. So it kind of completes the circle there. So our belief is rentals and property managers a great wedge into that market. And then on the landlord side, because we control the largest share of actively leasing inventory in our markets today. So for example, if you went to the Bay Area or Seattle and looked online at available rentals, one out of every seven or 10 properties you’ll look at is going to be a one rep home. And because of that, we collect the incredible amount of data around renters and also the offline data of, for example, foot traffic and properties or we inspect every home before we sign it up. And we are leveraging that data to help reduce vacancy for landlords. So that’s a huge part of our vision for the future is, you know, vacancy is a $35 billion problem for landlords every year. You know, vacancy rates fluctuate between seven to 12%. Nationally, it hasn’t changed much, even during the financial crash. You know, it only went up a few percentages. So They can see is the problem we plan to solve for landlords and really deliver? How can you tell me more? Tell us more about that. So for example, you know, one of the things is pricing of a property, there’s many different levers you can pull to reduce vacancy. And an example is pricing. So pricing, a rental property has always been sort of a market guests process. You see the big sites like Zillow, they have the zestimate. But that estimate is only based off of the listed price of the listing in their platform. It doesn’t take into account the offline data of the showings of you know, the quality of the home stuff that they don’t have insight to because they don’t have boots on the ground operations. So you know, we may get to the same rough same estimate initially as the low end. I’m not gonna say that, you know, we have a better initial estimate as Zillow because they’ve spent 10s of millions of dollars on that, but what we can Do we have a tighter feedback loop on adjusting that price dynamically based off the performance of that property. So for example, if we are doing showings on a home, every time we do a showing, we survey the renter and the mobile manager who did that showing for feedback. So we’ve collected both qualitative and quantitative data around the showing that can inform how we adjust the pricing on a property. So that’s just one example. There’s many other levers you can pull. For example, we we get an excess of renter applications on our platform. So we have an algorithm that can help better match renters to landlords. So there’s a lot of different sort of levers that you can pull to reduce vacancy. And we plan you know, we’ve already been able to reduce our vacancy, average number of vacancy days by about 30%. Over the past year, since we really focused on growing our the market share of leasing inventory that we own

Jason Hartman 30:59
variants. You know, it’s, it’s just fascinating. And I think this ought to really excite every investor listening. It’s fascinating to see how the industry is maturing, it’s becoming much more refined and more efficient. You know, this may not be something a lot of the listeners can use today because you’re not in every market, right? But certainly there will be, you know, there’ll be a knockoff or two, I mean, when the iPhone came out, you know, suddenly there were a zillion Android phones that are similar in concept, right? So you’re going to have these evolutions or really revolutions to some extent in the industry. And I think that’s pretty exciting for people listening. Ultimately, though, the market will become more of a perfect market like the stock market. And in some ways that limits opportunity because when there’s more perfection, there’s less chance to like wheel and do you know what I mean? You can’t get a meal on Apple stock, the price is the price, right? Take it or leave it Whether you’re buying or selling, because it’s a perfect market, but I think we’re a long way away from that. But, you know, we’re certainly increasing a lot of operational efficiency here. And yeah, reducing vacancy. I always thought that it’s just crazy that properties aren’t often enough. I mean, they are sometimes but not often enough, really marketed extensively before they are on the market. You know, why don’t we see these rental properties listed long before they are vacant? And sometimes, you know, you can elicit the tenants cooperation, but if the tenant is a slob, that’s not gonna help you anyway. But you know, you just have the generic photos of the house that you took while it was vacant or yellow was staged, and you use those over and over long before tenants vacate and then you really reduce vacancy. So a lot of good things come in, I think out of this, so yeah, good. Any final words you want to share with our listeners,

Chuck Hattemer 32:56
like you mentioned, we’re just on the on the west coast. today but we are looking for, you know, these new markets where real estate investors no more single family assets and, and so you know 10 your listeners out there who have a single family assets and any of the sort of top 20 metro areas in the US definitely keep tuned for one rent expansion. We’re planning to go to about six new markets over the next 12 months, including places like Indianapolis, Philadelphia, Phoenix, any really a Top single family rental markets, along with some of the higher end markets like New York and Boston or Chicago. So definitely very excited to be able to expand one route services and like you said, there is a lot of refinement in the industry, but it’s a huge market. And so I’m sure there will be multiple players and our goal is to really be you know, the best sort of renter facing brands and drive that value back to landlords and real estate investors. We want to be the preferred place that renters rent long term, and that should be valuable for landlords. All right, good stuff. Well, hey, thank you for joining us. Appreciate it. Awesome. Thank you so much, Jason.

Jason Hartman 34:10
Thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to subscribe so that you don’t miss any episodes. Be sure to check out the show’s specific website and our general website heart and Mediacom for appropriate disclaimers and Terms of Service. Remember that guest opinions are their own. And if you require specific legal or tax advice, or advice and any other specialized area, please consult an appropriate professional. And we also very much appreciate you reviewing the show. Please go to iTunes or Stitcher Radio or whatever platform you’re using and write a review for the show we would very much appreciate that. And be sure to make it official and subscribe so you do not miss any episodes. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode.

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