Creative Financing, Wrap Mortgages, SDIRA, AITDs, Financial Friends & More With Darlene Root

Jason Hartman welcomes Darlene Root back to the show. Darlene is a Venture Alliance Mastermind member who has become a broker for the passive income investor. They talked about Second Wrap Mortgage and how it differs from a normal wrap mortgage.

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Welcome to the creating wealth show with Jason Hartman. You’re about to learn a new slant on investing some exciting techniques and fresh new approaches to the world’s most historically proven asset class that will enable you to create more wealth and freedom than you ever thought possible. Jason is a genuine self made multi millionaire who’s actually been there and done it. He’s a successful investor, lender, developer and entrepreneur who’s owned properties in 11 states had hundreds of tenants and been involved in thousands of real estate transactions. This program will help you follow in Jason’s footsteps on the road to your financial independence day. You really can do it on now. here’s your host, Jason Hartman with the company leet solution for real estate investors.

Jason Hartman 1:04
It’s my pleasure to welcome a returning guest back to the show. And that is my friend Darlene root. She spoke at our meet the Masters event A few years ago in Irvine, California. And I thought it was time to get her back on the show and get an update on what she’s doing. Today we’re going to talk about rap mortgages. You’ve heard that term before we’ll talk about a new term. I love this one sexy seconds. And self directed IRAs. Darlene Welcome back. How are you?

Darlene Root 1:31
Hey, I’m fabulous. Jason, first of all, I really want to say thank you, you have created a, an amazing community. And you just give out so much content. So I hope your listeners really understand the value that that you that you get all the time.

Jason Hartman 1:46
Well, I appreciate that. And I appreciate our listeners because a lot of times, they’re not only you know, taking from the community, they’re contributing to it too. So it’s just a it’s just a really nice circle of self sustaining content creation. And education. So yeah, it’s it’s great. Thank you so much, Darlene, I appreciate it. And you, you know, I really view you as a very creative real estate person. And that’s how I got interested in real estate from the, the sort of creative financing and creative tax avoidance angle. You know, I’m not kept up with the super creative stuff, you know, I’m, I’d say, I’m creative, but you know, in terms of real estate deals, but not as much as some are, I think you are more so than I am. And also, I want to apologize to our listeners in advance, or sound quality is not as good as we’d like it to be today, but we will make do with it and fix it up in post production a little bit too. So Darlene, tell us first let’s start with sexy seconds. What is a sexy second, second leader,

Darlene Root 2:44
second mortgage, you’re referring to, of course, a sexy secured second. It’s sort of a hybrid of a traditional rap. And for those listeners who aren’t familiar with a rap, it basically is used and it was started using that actually in the 1980s When I first started investing in real estate, we would purchase properties where the seller was willing to hold paper. They had an underlying mortgage. Now, back in the day, all mortgages were assumable. So this was never an issue wasn’t until later on. That was the good old days. I think you were around in those days. No, it

Jason Hartman 3:20
was before my time, but I knew about it. Like when I started, I heard a lot of real estate gurus talking about, you know, how the Supreme Court upheld the due on sale clause, and I think that was like 1978 or something. Yeah. And, you know, how they used to assume mortgages. And boy, I thought that must have been, you know, William Nickerson books. I mean, he was like, the original creative real estate guy years ago, and the nothing down community and stuff and, you know, a few investors if you want to, you know, go go back and just review history of real estate investing. Bill Nickerson are William Nickerson way back into I believe the 50 He was doing some incredible stuff. He made a fortune. Of course, you have to adjust those dollars for inflation. But yeah, you know, he was buying 13,000 more houses that are probably worth, you know, half a million today. Oh yeah, absolutely. And some of the stuff that he did is they actually wrote we’re kind of twisting a little bit in the lending space. So in the in the buying space like Nickerson used so widely was the seller would sell you the property you the real estate investor. And you know, it’s $100,000 property, there’s a $60,000 underlying mortgage at you know, back back in the day 5% or percent, and then that seller was willing to hold $40,000 paper but he was going to do it dcv a wrap. So he’s wrapping that first mortgage inside of his and then saying I’m going to charge 8% and Okay, so so wraparound mortgages are controversial. They’re also known as AI TDs, all inclusive trust deeds, and you know, to If you’re in a mortgage or a trust deed state, but that that, you know, in California, they’ve referred to it as a TD. So basically what that is, is when you you acquire a property, and then here’s why one will at least one reason that’s controversial. Darlene, you can add to this, but you basically assume the first Trust Deed or the first mortgage, I should say, and then you create a second mortgage. And, and you you wrap it, I don’t know if I’m explaining it right. But But basically, you don’t even tell the lender on that first mortgage that you have purchased the property and the controversial part. And, you know, I’m not even sure what the legal standing is on this nowadays, is that the lender could call the due on sale clause, but in the old days, there wasn’t a due on sale clause or there might have been one in the contract, but it wasn’t even enforceable. And nowadays it is definitely. So add to that early and if you would,

Darlene Root 5:51
absolutely. So they kind of fell by the way of the Buffalo. You can still do it. There have been there was case law on an FHA deal. loans and VA loans and land contracts are assumable. So you’re not going to be doing this rap for the investor buyers out there with existing financing from Bank of America or Wells Fargo. This is a very, super nici segment segments. We we stay away from the actual traditional rap what we do instead is sort of a hybrid of that. And that’s where the sexy secured seconds come in. And that is we’re loaning money. So what that looks like Jason is you’re, you’re having your investor buyer, your rehabber who wants to purchase a property. The seller doesn’t want to hold paper.

Jason Hartman 6:45
In other words, they don’t want to do a carry back. They don’t want to be the lender in the transaction.

Darlene Root 6:50
No, they want to cash out and there’s a bank of america underlying on it.

Jason Hartman 6:53
Okay, so so there’s a there’s a first mortgage from BFA, and then the seller wants the their money out for their equity, right? In other words, they don’t want to carry any paper. They don’t want to do a seller carry back seller financing, whatever you want to call it. So what do you do? How do you get them their money.

Darlene Root 7:09
So they call you the lender. And they say I’m using the example that I that I can, it’s hard to see because there’s no visual here, this is all audio, but comes to you and says, hey, look, I can take down a property, I can buy a property for 100 grand, it’s going to need $5,000 to fix it up. The ARV is going to be 150. At the end of the day, it’s going to take about six months from start to finish. And so I need funding. And so you determine that you only have 15,000. But a financial friend has 90 and so that financial friend wants passive income, and it’ll lend them $90,000 on the first loan. And they’re going to charge let’s say they’re going to do it at 12% with no point you’re going to done alone, the fifth tene thousand, but you’re going to wrap it underlying notes at 15% with no point. Okay, so you get a hard money loan for the second at a, you know, a really high rate 16% with two points you said, Now we’re not going to do points because it’s the math. You know, everybody would need a financial calculator while we’re on the phones gonna make it really simple. So the first one is 90,000 and your financial friends as the outgoingness deal with you. They have 90 grand they meant that 90,000 at 12% you lend 15,000 at 15% when you say you who what party is you are you are the rapper, you’re the rapper.

Jason Hartman 8:43
It is that also the buyer.

Darlene Root 8:46
Now the buyers investor buyers Bob, he’s buying the property.

Jason Hartman 8:50
Okay, let’s name all these people because I’m not very good at rapping I don’t even like rap music. So, so let’s name all these people. So When you’re teaching people this technique, who are you talking to the buyer? I mean, the person listening is most likely a person who wants to be an investor and buy properties. But maybe not maybe they you know, end up on the financing side of the equation. So, let’s name all these people so we can keep it straight. Who’s Bob? You said Bob.

Darlene Root 9:18
Bob is the buyer.

Jason Hartman 9:20
Is the buyer buyer Bob? That’s easy.

Darlene Root 9:22
Okay. Right. buyer Bob. First lender is Larry VA. No, now you’re you’re using you’re using financial funds on this one. Okay. Because you’re lending money to Bob the buyer. And then Blender lottery has the 90,000

Jason Hartman 9:41
Okay, so Larry, the lender is going to loan $90,000 to Bob the buyer to Bob buyer got it. Okay, this is good. What else?

Darlene Root 9:51
And so then, the second sexy secure seconds is Sally.

Jason Hartman 9:56
Okay, Sally is sexy and she’s got this secure the sexy stuff

Darlene Root 10:00
Okay, right. And so she is going to lend the 15,000 but she said what I want to do is I’m going to do this 15% but I’m going to wrap that 90 grand into my loan. Therefore I’m getting 15% on 105,000 and then she’s going to then pay in agreement in the rap agreement. It states that the Bob the buyer is going to give Sally all of the payments the total combined payment and then Sally is going to pay Larry. His interest on his 90 grand is 12% interest on his 90

Jason Hartman 10:41
Okay, so Larry, the lender gets 12% interest on a $90,000 loan. Sexy Sally with a secured second. Loans $15,000 that house the houses being purchased for 105,000 Is that right? Correct. Okay, so this person so what you’re telling them The buyer to do is how to get into the deal with no money down, right.

Darlene Root 11:03
And then some of our Bob, the buyers actually have money to bring to the party. But I’m using an extreme case where he’s really financing the rehab cost and really getting into it. Because there seems to be some room here on the price. I always tell people if you’re not if you wouldn’t buy the property, don’t lend money on it. Right. Good advice. Yeah. So this you’re getting, you’re getting all of the due diligence, you’re getting an appraisal, you’re looking at the rehab punch list, and who can rehab anything for five grand these days? But to make it super simple. So when you’re doing this a six month payoff, you’re actually getting an annualized rate of 34%. Because you’re, you’re actually getting interest on a 105 at 15. Not paying the 90 at 12.

Jason Hartman 11:52
So you’re teaching people how to be Sally with a sexy second, right?

Darlene Root 11:57
Absolutely. Okay,

Jason Hartman 11:58
good because I’m not understanding Which role people are having here? So that’s good. Okay, so, so the listeners are gonna be Sally. They’re looking at real estate deals out there in the world, and they’re willing to offer a sexy second on the deal,

Darlene Root 12:12
right? Yeah. Okay. All right. Yep. So Sally is offering net 15,000 at 15%. But she also wants to make money on the difference. So she’s wrapping Larry’s 90,000. So her 15,000 if you can picture a basketball and you’re putting it into a bag, and so that basketball is that 90,000 and the grocery bag is your 15. And so it’s all now one great big thing that sort of wary the lenders 90,000 is hidden or hidden but encompassed or developed around your 15 and you’re writing that special agreement that you’re using To use, and it’s going to say all of the payments on the 105 at 15. Go to Sally. And Sally in turn then pays the original agreed upon amount back to literary lender at 90,000. At 12%. This is a lot easier on a visual, but when you break it down, when you look at the payments, your say for instance Larry’s payments are you know, 600 bucks. And yours are 400 you’re you’re keeping that extra $200

Jason Hartman 13:35
Okay, so you’re Sally. Mm hmm. Okay, so you so you’re teaching people how to be Sally. Yeah, to come in on this deal. And do you know Sally’s return? Have you actually calculated that? I mean, you’re saying she’s basically getting $200 per month for how long

Darlene Root 13:54
200 I guess I should have really amortize this out. When I use the financial calculator. To figure the whole thing, Sally is actually getting 34% annualized. Keeping

Jason Hartman 14:07
you Oh, yeah. Now Now, everybody’s ears have perked up. But you got to tell people, like when I’ve made loans, and I finance a lot of properties with my own money, okay. And the only ones I’ve been burned on our seconds, and they’re not very sexy to me. Well, maybe they are sexy. They’re like having a sexy, crazy girlfriend that blows all your money. You know, it’s a lot of fun, but it’s very brutal. You know, I like those good old stable first trust deeds, you know, I never get burned on those, but the seconds are just man. They’re just risky. You know? How do you speak to that? If you would,

Darlene Root 14:43
sir. So how this differs from a traditional second mortgage, is because the face amount of the rep loan overstates the actual indebtedness. And of course, that’s used that’s by using a special agreement. And in that agreement, it says Bob Bauer pays Sally the total amount of payments now if Bob flakes out and doesn’t pay Sally she’s not obligated to pay that first lien then Larry lien but She sure is going to because he

Jason Hartman 15:15
doesn’t want to have the property foreclosed on and lose her position.

Darlene Root 15:18
Absolutely. That’s

Jason Hartman 15:20
this this by the way listeners is what I think is the problem with seconds and why they’re not sexy. Okay so Darlene argue with me on this you know let’s debate it out there cuz you The second is always in this weird frickin position where if the person doesn’t pay the first loan, then the second is left with what do I do? You know, like do I do I pay the first and make it current so that I have the right to foreclose see in most places, maybe all but at least most I think, you know, if you don’t if that first that first they have the right to foreclose and all they care about is there in your example there $90,000 they don’t care about You’re second they’ll just wipe you out and you’ll get nothing. So that’s all they care about. So then when you hold the second mortgage you’re in the position of maybe you make the payments on the first so that you can do the foreclosure and you can make sure you hopefully get enough money at the foreclosure sale to pay the first end pay you the second I second sir just uh it’s like no man’s land. It’s just not a good position. I don’t know maybe I’m wrong. I mean, like look at people who have made fortunes investing in second mortgages. All right, I just never have I always seem to lose money doing them. But I know people have made a lot of money in seconds. I’m just not one of them. But tell us how you deal with that risk or rationalize it.

Darlene Root 16:45
At that point. I agree. I wouldn’t do a second without a rap. Because in the language on that rap, it really does put you in the drive you Sally in the driver seats to control that deal. In a generally in a first second position loan, whether the traditional first and then second, you really don’t know if that seller or you know, Bob, in this case, has paid that first lien holder. And so you’re always at the mercy of finding out did he pay his mortgage this month because he may not pay you in the second position but may pay the first lien holder that’s happened a lot where people are like I was in second, I never got paid his way.

Jason Hartman 17:27
So let’s let’s, let’s ferret that out and what that all means. So the first thing is, when you hold a second mortgage, you always want to have in your documents what’s called a request for notice of default. Well, it’s a request, remember the word is request. It doesn’t mean you always be notified when they default on the first but, you know, hopefully you will, okay, so at least you know that but on a wrap mortgage, what are you doing, Darlene Are you collecting all as as Sally, you’re wrapping the first and so you’re collecting The entire payment right and then you’re responsible for paying the first Sally is gonna collect the whole thing for both mortgages, the payments on both, and then pay the first herself right each month.

Darlene Root 18:11
Yeah, so it kind of acts like a first mortgage. It’s sort of a window dressing of Bob, you’re going to be paying Sally the entire amount. And then Sally is going to be paying Larry, his percentage based on how it was written on that first loan. Do you really don’t need the notice? Because you’re going to know if Bob is not paying you. And we wait one question, Larry, I thought you said BFA had the first. No, no, no, not in this case. That’s in a traditional rap. This is this Oh, okay. Yeah, this is this is you lending money with financial friends.

Jason Hartman 18:48
Okay, so who’s your financial friend, your Sally, who’s your friend, Claire, everybody are? Yes. Larry is your friend and Larry makes the first loan for 90,000. Right? Yes. Okay. So that’s not an assumption. Then

Darlene Root 19:00
that’s a new loan. That’s correct. That’s why it’s not as risky as a rap. This is more of a hybrid that we create a Yeah, because I wouldn’t. Right now, I don’t think that I would even do a rap. Even if it’s an FHA underlying loan, there has been case law where FHA got held, you know, holding the bag and said, although our loan is assumable, there’s no provision there for a rap. And technically, that second lien position isn’t assuming that loan or creating a loan and wrapping an FHA loan, and FHA said, Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you’re not technically assuming it. You’re creating a loan and you’re using our money to make money. And that sort of blew up in this in this investor space. Interesting. Okay. Yeah,

Jason Hartman 19:47
yeah. In this case, I wouldn’t think there’s any when you say risk of a traditional rap, what you’re referring to is due on sale clause getting called risk, right. That’s the type of risk you’re referring to when you said that. So if Larry, the lender is making The new loan for $90,000. And Larry will be aware of probably that you’re doing a rap here, right? Yeah. I mean, there’s there’s no due on sale risk, then yeah, that risk goes away. But you’re still in second position.

Darlene Root 20:15
You are in second position, Jason. But with the rap paperwork, it puts you because you’re wrapping that first loan in with your loan. Although the first and security instrument is out there. You’re sitting down with all the players and saying, I am wrapping this up. The money is coming to me. If there’s a default, I can initiate a foreclosure. Because I have the rap. Okay.

Jason Hartman 20:41
Yeah, that’s true. Mm hmm.

Darlene Root 20:43
Is that clear?

Jason Hartman 20:44
Yeah. Yeah, that’s clear. I got that. I hope the listeners do too. I totally got that. So. So basically, what you’re doing is you’re making because you’ve set this up, and you’ve loaned a small amount of money on the deal, but you’ve you’ve set it up in wrapped first, you get this override kind of a handling fee every month.

Darlene Root 21:04
You’re getting interest you’re getting interest on a military money. And

Jason Hartman 21:12
yeah, tell explain that a little more. Just make sure people get that how are you getting interest on Larry the lenders $90,000 your? Because you’re writing that entire loan combined together for 105,000 at 16%. Although you’re breathing 15 grand to the party, you’re getting interest, the total amount of interest is on the 105,000. What interest rate Are you charging on the rap?

Darlene Root 21:38
15 but

Jason Hartman 21:40
who’s gonna pay 16%? That’s crazy. That’s too too much money. It’s too expensive. Now we

Darlene Root 21:46
know we get it all the time we do. We do 12 and three points or 15 and one. I didn’t have the points in there because that really doesn’t mean that shows your percentage your annualized interest rate is being off the charts but

Jason Hartman 21:57
yeah, right. So forget the points. Just keep it Simple, but that’s not for a long term buy and hold property. I mean, no one’s paying you 16% of the entire structure on the buy and hold, are they?

Darlene Root 22:07
Great question. That is for a short term, in this case, the loan is six months. interest only payments. If you’re doing a longer term, three years, five years, 15 years, you’re certainly going to do a lot less interest. How much like give us Do you have a parameter on that? I mean, you know, deals you’ve done, or so we have passive investors who have Roth IRA or 401k, to want passive, and they will be happy as a clam for 6%. And they’re going to bring the lion’s share no points, they could care less. And then I go in behind them at eight and a half.

Darlene Root 22:41
Right. Hi,

Jason Hartman 22:42
Darlene, this seems, you know, here’s the problem with the creative real estate world. It just doesn’t scale. You know, this seems like a lot of work and complexity. And I don’t know maybe you’ve figured out a way to scale it up and you know, sort of streamline the whole thing, but you I hate to say it because I’m gonna sound like an idiot saying this, but it’s like there’s too much thinking involved. Yeah, and people always tell me keep it simple. And I say, you know when people are zig and I need to say, because right now doing hard money at high interest, people are softening up on their on their money, like you said, but those people who even when when you say softening up, you mean people are willing to accept lower returns and borrowers won’t pay high rates, right? Is

Darlene Root 23:27
that what you mean? Absolutely. So people who are doing these turnkey turnkey investments, where they’re used to paying in a 789 percent, it is scalable it is now this isn’t the only crux of our business. We still do wholesale we still do rehab. Very Okay, so let me

Jason Hartman 23:45
let me tell you one thing I shared with my listeners is I you know, what’s the guy’s name? I can’t remember him. But you know, he’s a well known like old school real estate guru guy, he Well, he came to speak at our mastermind group in Florida. I’m not sure if you were at that meeting, but What do I want to say the guy’s name is just refresh my memory. I can’t think of it right now. I had him on the show. And, you know, he’s I’m gonna remember it right after this, of course. And Schwab john. Yeah, right. Yeah. Were you there that mastermind meeting? Okay, well, anyway, he came in to speak. And like my friend sitting next to me, you know, who’s in the group with us? He turns to me and says, this is a lot of work, you know, to do this deal. Like, I don’t have time for that all these parties you have to deal with and all this complexity, and basically that deal and I described that on the show before for about john Schwab. And, you know, he’s, he’s really smart. And you know, it’s really interesting. It’s just that you’ve got to do these deals on big giant, you know, apartment complexes to make it worth your time because he, he basically went to this seller, he was telling the story, Darlene you would have loved it. He went to the seller, and he you know, said basically, I won’t buy your property for no money down. You know, maybe you didn’t say that in so many words, but that was his goal. Right. And in this in the He said to the seller, he said, Well, the seller says I want to cash out. He says, Well, what are you gonna do with the cash? And the seller says, Well, I’m gonna pay a bunch of medical bills. So john Schwab calls the hospital. You know, the guys, he says, Can I have the phone number, the hospital who you paying the bills to? And so he calls them up this, you know, company, hospital, healthcare organization, whatever, and says, look, I’d like to pay this guy’s bills for him. Right. And so we had 35,000, and medical bills or whatever. And he had a first and I think he did a rap or something like that wrapped the first and for the cash out, said, Look, you don’t need cash, I’ll just pay. I’ll just take over the payments on your bills for you. And I’m like, Okay, well, that’s fine that you bought the property for nothing down. But it was like, it was so much work to chase all this down. Yeah, I mean, like, does anybody realize the number of phone calls and letters and contracts and documents that all takes? It’s complicated?

Darlene Root 25:57
Yeah. No, am I wrong? This is A great tool for those who like my brother who has a day job, he runs a business. He doesn’t have time to fix and flip or wholesale or do any of those other things and he has a boatload of money in his Roth and he said put it to work for me dar and so this is the kind of financial friend that you want to bring to the party. This isn’t going to be an aggressive investor This is going to be someone who is pretty passive. My sister is another one retired just wants me to play with her my weight.

Jason Hartman 26:35
make the distinction though. They’re pretty passive, but you are very active correct. You’re very engaged and you’re the one doing all these phone calls chasing this all down writing all these complex contracts for you know this and that. I mean, these are not contracts you can get at the, you know, online at Nolo press,

Darlene Root 26:55
you know, they’re they’re, they’re creative contracts, right and they require real Thinking? I mean, do you have a lawyer handy that you just use a transactional attorney to do all this for you? or How do you do? Yes, I do. I have someone that I do do this with. And it’s not the work that you might think it is. When you create financial friends, either through a Ria or mastermind. You’re going to be doing this with very few Bob, the buyers, you’re not going to be marketing for this. This is not something you’re advertising for. You’re not sending out postcards, as they often reveals. Certainly not you’re creating relationships as well as everybody should be in this business. Creating that nightmare group and you know, in the mastermind, you have 100 people collectively with all the masterminds together. There are rehabbers there are wholesalers, there are term tears and most people need money. These are the kinds of relationships that you bring in and then you go ahead and then you say Bob buyer comes to you and says, I got this deal I want to take down I’m going to put some money into the deal. While I only have 15 grand But I think I can find your 90. That’s how you construct the deal. You make a few phone calls. It’s not, not the work that people think it is. It’s once you’ve established those relationships, those trust relationship. That’s when that’s when the magic happens. And of course, when you start a course in there, that’s up to

Jason Hartman 28:18
you. Yeah, right. Right. So you’re basically acting as a broker of people in money, essentially. Yeah.

Darlene Root 28:22
Well, I don’t like to use that word because it’s

Jason Hartman 28:26
like a licensed broker, but you’re still putting people together, right. And money together. I’m the traffic cop. I put them together traffic copter, okay. Which, which is the same as a broker really, you know, you’ve used the word a lot, and I like the fair phrase. And I like the phrase so much I actually made it the tagline for my venture Alliance mastermind group. I you know, it’s the venture Alliance mastermind, your financial friends. I love that phrase. But define financial friends. You’ve used that phrase a lot during this interview, you know, use it before we probably defined it when you were on the show previously. And certainly live at the meet the Masters event. But what does that mean to you when you say that?

Darlene Root 29:04
Yeah, so financial friends are friends with benefits. And what I mean. What I mean by that is, is you’re creating an alliance of people who have the same like minded, they all have kind of the same goal in mind, and that is to help one another create wealth, whether it’s with self directed Roth IRA investing, or whether it’s outside of that realm, because I do business with a lot of people who don’t want to get a self directed, but they all have the same goal and that is to help their family live securely, even if it’s passively. So, a mastermind is somewhat the same way you have a bunch of people get together who like and trust one another and that’s the key is the trust factor. You don’t do this with people that you don’t know have a track record. So that’s basically you are a financial friend. If you If we wanted to do a deal, I would not think twice about lending you money. And I don’t think you’d think twice about lending me money, because we’ve built that relationship up to where we can do that.

Jason Hartman 30:11
Yeah. And that’s critically important, folks. That’s why you need to join the venture Alliance mastermind group, everybody. I won’t I won’t pitch you on that. But being his shameless self promoter, I will say, you can go to venture lions that’s venture lions and check that out. Darlene, this has been a interesting talk. It’s been stimulating. So thank you for coming on again and sharing it with us. How can people contact you?

Darlene Root 30:36
If someone wants to have a conversation or if they have a question, go ahead and email me at D route 21. At Comcast, net and that d is in Darlene. My last name, which is root r o t isn’t Tom and the number 21 don’t ask so he’s 21 at Comcast dotnet well, Happy 21st birthday.

Jason Hartman 31:03
Yeah, I’m just doing 29 forever. Let’s let’s just keep going over and over on that one. Oh, good stuff. All right. Darlene, thank you so much for joining us and happy investing.

Darlene Root 31:12
Thank you. Well,

Jason Hartman 31:16
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